Oh, good! You're back, Bernard! I was enjoying this conversation, and when I saw your initial "going round in a loop" post, I thought you'd got tired of it.

I suppose we all have things that are really important to us in the liturgy that we don't like to be compromised. For example, I am so glad we now have a real "mystery of faith" prayer instead of "Sweet Sacrament Divine" and "Oh Come let us adore Him". I have no problem with either of those in their right place, but the mystery of faith has to speak of Jesus who died, rose and is glorified. It can't be any other sentiment that you feel like singing that day. I didn't like the Hail Mary being said during Mass, either. No matter how strong a devotion people have to Our Lady, that is out of place at Mass. (Actually, a visiting priest said it a few weeks ago in our church at the end of the Prayers of the Faithful, even though an instruction has been given that it mustn't be done.) I can't bear banners in the sanctuary that do not depict God. The Pentecost one that was up for some months was beautiful, but the one of the Assumption distracted me from Mass as does the St Therese one. I love the banners that some of the non-Catholic churches have, but I really feel the sanctuary is like the" Holy of Holies", and should be reserved for God and those who are serving at Mass.

Can you give some examples of what we do that is not liturgically correct? I haven't read the Pope's document about liturgy that you refer to. What is it's title? I'll look it up on the Vatican site.

A

No I'm still here, was just thinking in retrospect that I was going to do a quick post and it turned into a "real" debate... anyways

It's not a document but a book, I borrowed it from a friend so I can't exactly remember the title now... something like "Liturgy in the Catholic Church". I can find out the exact title for you if you want, must just get in touch with my friend again. Just let me know.

Liturgical abuses like us ALL saying the entire Psalm, or the "Blessed are you Lord...", we're not suppose to say that. We all have different parts in the Mass, and neither the laity or the clergy may change anything in the prescribed texts (as per the General Instructions for the Roman Missal).

And things like children running around during the Children's Mass (and sitting with their backs to the tabernacle... especially when the Blessed Sacrament is put back). As I've said I think that the Children's Mass is an absolute BRILLIANT idea, but we shouldn't lose site of the fact that Holy Mass is still being celebrated, which requires order, dignity and reverence. I'm not at all suggestion we go back to Pre Vatican II Masses, but the Church time and time again (especially Benedict XVI) speaks about keep the Liturgy solemn and holy.

I also quite enjoy us saying a "real" mystery of faith, as you said. And I do admit we are all human, and everyone makes mistakes. The church is afterall made up of humans who sin. WE aren't a church of saints... although we all aim and try to be

I suppose what really bothers me is that Mass is not as solemn as the Church expects us to be. I find those music videos extremely intrustive, impersonal and cheezy! Youth Mass I really think has a great thing going for it, and they should keep up thier work. They are really an excellent group of faithful people I was reading the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy again this afternoon (instead of studying... hehehe) and once again I was drawn to what it requires from us:
1) Holiness, solemnity, reverence
2) Gregorian Chant was never suppose to be chucked out of the Church, but is the official music form of the Latin Rite
3) Contemprary music is definitely allowed... but the Church once again states is must allow for faithful participation, not be against Catholic doctrine, must be drawn from the Scripture and/or Liturgical sources AND MUST NEVER take away from the beauty, mystery and solemnity of the Mass

mmm, I've always thought that the part of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy that speaks about culture is applicable when we consider the modern songs. There is another VII document called Musicam Sacram - Instruction on Music in the Liturgy. Have you read that one? That explores what we are discussing in depth, and is worth a read. It speaks of "sacred popular music, liturgical or simply religious"

"Solemn" doesn't have to mean "grave". It can also mean earnest and having to do with religious rites. Joy just has to be a big part of our worship, and joyful worship can still be earnest and holy.

I like the dvds Father David uses, as long as they are not played during a very prayerful and reverent part of the Mass, when I am in a place of deep prayer. Maybe the children enjoy them? People have told me that their little ones now can't wait to get to Mass, because Children's Mass is a special experience for them. I am with you that it is important to teach children to be reverent, but realistically... some of them are very small and we can't expect them to sit still and keep quiet for an hour. Telling them to behave won't help. Being a parent taught me that children do not learn much from what you SAY. They learn from what they see you DO. I can't wait to see how my grandson responds to the Good Shepherd Catechesis when Sylvia and Philippa start teaching the preschoolers at CBC. That is sure to teach the little ones reverence.

A

Wow - just going over this thread and it really got me thinking

As a member of the Youth Band and one of the senior members who help select the songs for the mass, I agree on keeping the mass liturgically correct and understand where all you are coming from.

Bernard, I agree with you that the children's mass can be a bit distracting - but i think it's aimed at the kids, and like all of our musical ministries, it's developing. I personally think it's great that the different masses appeal to different people - I don't usually have the patience for children's mass, but that is why I enjoy the teen mass at 6pm, but I think it's a great way for the kids to experience mass, and i certainly wish I had it as a child.

As a youth band, we are constantly trying to improve the mass experience, and as what was said early in the thread, not distract but enhance certain parts of the mass, and because of this point specifically - quality is very important to us - so we aim to not play songs that are not up to quality, cause the minute it is too difficult to sing, the parish doesn't sing, and that's the entire reason why we play - to encourage the parish to sing out their praises to God.

Also, even if we play a Hillsong here, a Michael W Smith song there, we really try to keep them fitted to the readings of the week - sometimes it's easy, other times it's really difficult. We also try keep the tone of the mass - we don't want a fast paced song during communion, like wise we don't want a solemn entrance song when we are inviting everyone to mass.

Another part of the mass we are trying to improve are the Parts of the Mass. As a band we're trying to learn all the new parts as well try to keep up with the new liturgy as unfortunately, a lot of the old and beautiful mass parts can no longer be used because they do not fit into the new liturgy wording. But we really feel strongly about singing songs we do not feel are up to quality, because as I said earlier - we want to enhance the song, not distract, and personally - there is nothing more distracting from the mass than a poor quality song, or a badly played song.

But slowly but surely we are working hard to improve, as I am know the other music ministries are.

Much Love
Bee

Wow what a great discussion. Bernard you make a lot of valid points as does Anne. Bea - I know where you are coming from - having started a band here now I appreciate how difficult it can be to keep the music lively and edifying while honouring the them of the Liturgy for that day. If I may a suggestion - Bernard speak to the people in the band or folk group or whatever if you hear a doctrinally questionable hymn -Anne rightly challenged me on occassion and it made me more aware. And knowing Jonathan and Bea, they will take it in the Spirit it is given. One way is if a hymn is generally orthodox but contains heretical verses - e.g. One Bread One Body, I have tended to expunge those verses and kept the others which are liturgically edifying. It is not ideal, but I think it is an acceptable compromise. As for orthodox I have known only 2 in my life who were / are fasitiduously liturgically orthodox: one was Father Ward and the other a priest here from my former parish, Fr Michael Anglier. And I agree when done, it is a beautiful, beautiful testament to the power of gift of the Liturgy of the Sacrifice of the Mass - beyond measure.